  |
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
       |
Reactive armor tends to need another layer of conventional armor beneath it to work to its utomost effect. I don't believe you'd want a skirt composed entirely of reactive armor, so the skirt itself would probably be made of some other conventional armor, with a layer of reactive armor on top.
The running sequence involved with armor skirt pannels hanging close/past the knees would be interesting as well.
Armor panels to cover the legs need not comform to the actual shape of the leg. They can be simpler angled shapes, bolted onto the outside. This would be even easier if the outside leg armor is mostly featureless and devoid of too many creases and folds (as it should be).
How about spaced armor panels attached directly to the hips and knees? Tomexe had a good suggestion that included aluminum/steel panels and a thick layer of foam/other lightweight packing material. It might not stop higher velocity KE rounds, but it might still slow down incomming shaped charge projectiles enough to detonate them. It also sounds much lighter and safer to implement around infantry than reactive armor.
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 10:21 am on Feb. 28, 2004 | IP
|
|
DizzyDroid
Newbie
|
|
|
This may be a little off topic, but I figured I have started enough 'new' topics for a while. What discussion has there been on light refraction armor? Could anyone post a link on that subject? I have heard a few things about, not much really.
-----
Ph33r t3h b33r
|
|
Total Posts: 23 | Joined Feb. 2004 | Posted on: 3:50 pm on Feb. 28, 2004 | IP
|
|
ChrisDickerson
Mecha Technician
|
|
|
Kilt wearing Mecha? The Scotts of the world would love that.. Refractive armor? Never heard anything about it other than in Mechwarrior. I don't even know if it exists.
-----
Chris Dickerson, Resource Requisitions, M.P.S. Team
No one has the time to do a job right the first time, but they always have time to do it again.
|
|
Total Posts: 1507 | Joined May 2003 | Posted on: 5:41 pm on Feb. 28, 2004 | IP
|
|
noahrei
Advanced Member
|
 |
May as well jsut think of this as an Armor topic, trust me we wander way further off topic than this. I think any sort of reflective armor is just a mirrored surfacve that would reflect light away and slow the time it would take for a laser to burn through.
As for the earlier subject, if all we want to do is detonate a shell earlier then we could just right a sort of chain mail with a micro coat of C4 or somethign similar right.
How do pilots feel about this, "Oh by the way son your armor is explosive."
-----
In better times, justice had three flavors: Foil, Epee and Sabre.
Mad Rabbit Design
|
|
Total Posts: 500 | Joined Aug. 2002 | Posted on: 9:48 pm on Feb. 28, 2004 | IP
|
|
tomexe
Hardcore
|
|
|
Quote: from Caesar02 on 7:05 am on Feb. 28, 2004
A skirt long enough to cover the two most vulnerable parts of a mechs leg- the hips and the knees- would be extremely long and bulky. It would end up making the mech much heavier, and it would definitely get in the way of the legs. If you are bent on having a skirt on the mech, make it plain old spaced armor to detonate warheads. That would be much, much lighter and therefore would reduce many of the problems presented by a reactive armor skirt.
A fauld would cover the hips easily, the knees would be quite adaquately protected by grieves. The exceptions would be if someone stood right underneath and shot up the skirt, or the backs of the knees. But the front and sides of the knees could easily be protected by extensions off the shin armor, both to the front and side. They probably would have to be made sturdy enough, to withstand kneeling, that they could take tiles. The question would be could you get the tiles to stay on and work if the mech kept kneeling?
|
|
Total Posts: 1212 | Joined May 2001 | Posted on: 4:09 am on Feb. 29, 2004 | IP
|
|
ChrisDickerson
Mecha Technician
|
|
|
You'd have to have more than just bolts holding the tiles in place. They'd have to be fitted into slots/grooves in the primary belt of armor along with being attached by the bolts. This would be the only way that I can see for a tile not to be moved out of alignment and the bolts to be torqued so they can't be removed without serious work.
-----
Chris Dickerson, Resource Requisitions, M.P.S. Team
No one has the time to do a job right the first time, but they always have time to do it again.
|
|
Total Posts: 1507 | Joined May 2003 | Posted on: 10:05 am on Feb. 29, 2004 | IP
|
|
Caesar02
N00b Zerkleinerungsmaschine
|
|
|
How about an aerogel spaced armor skirt? I know we've had a long thread about this already, but maybe the newbs have something to offer on this one...
For those of you who don't know, Aerogel is a solid material that weighs, I beleive, about 4 times more than air. In other words, next to nothing. It looks like glass, and has similar properties. Of course, that also means it can be shattered like glass, so if you were going to use it as spaced armor, it would have to be incased by something, like a thin sheet of aluminum perhaps.
-----
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
|
|
Total Posts: 1191 | Joined June 2002 | Posted on: 10:38 am on Feb. 29, 2004 | IP
|
|
noahrei
Advanced Member
|
|
|
Quote: from tomexe on 1:09 am on Feb. 29, 2004
The exceptions would be if someone stood right underneath and shot up the skirt, or the backs of the knees.
But who in their right mind would try to look up a skirt?
-----
In better times, justice had three flavors: Foil, Epee and Sabre.
Mad Rabbit Design
|
|
Total Posts: 500 | Joined Aug. 2002 | Posted on: 8:46 pm on Feb. 29, 2004 | IP
|
|
DizzyDroid
Newbie
|
|
|
Two words.....MECHA CUP!!! We could even have little holes in it to allow for 'breathing'.
That wasn't too off color was it?
-----
Ph33r t3h b33r
|
|
Total Posts: 23 | Joined Feb. 2004 | Posted on: 12:47 am on Mar. 1, 2004 | IP
|
|
geneofols
Advanced Member
|
|
|
Quote: from DizzyDroid on 12:47 am on Mar. 1, 2004
Two words.....MECHA CUP!!! We could even have little holes in it to allow for 'breathing'.
That wasn't too off color was it?
Yes, it was. Little too much gamma there...lol.
-----
Posted by Gene."Duct tape is kinda like the Force: it has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together."
|
|
Total Posts: 459 | Joined Oct. 2001 | Posted on: 8:17 am on Mar. 1, 2004 | IP
|
|
kaempfer
Advanced Member
|
|
|
Quote: from Caesar02 on 10:38 am on Feb. 29, 2004
How about an aerogel spaced armor skirt? I know we've had a long thread about this already, but maybe the newbs have something to offer on this one...
For those of you who don't know, Aerogel is a solid material that weighs, I beleive, about 4 times more than air. In other words, next to nothing. It looks like glass, and has similar properties. Of course, that also means it can be shattered like glass, so if you were going to use it as spaced armor, it would have to be incased by something, like a thin sheet of aluminum perhaps.
http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/overview/faq.html#aerogel
-----
[wannabe] Aerospace engineer
|
|
Total Posts: 987 | Joined Aug. 2002 | Posted on: 5:37 pm on Mar. 1, 2004 | IP
|
|
Chrome_Dragon
Newbie
|
|
|
Chris posted this picture (http://www.helispot.com/photos/03224.html) suggesting that the minigun turret will be a 'chin turret'. While I agree that it would maximize the utility of the minigun for ground targets, with a head turret it could be used in an early generation missile interceptor (until Stavatti irons out the kinks in their nuclear ray gun)
Quote: from Caesar02 on 6:11 pm on Feb. 25, 2004
Nice linkage.
I still prefer active defense systems over passive ones, even if reactive armor does reside in the grey area between the two. I think the ideal system for a mech would be an anti-projectile gasdynamic laser system, a la http://www.defensereview.com/352003/TIS1.pdf .
That was posted on another thread a long time ago, but I dont know if many people read it. Anyway, its basically a really powerful, really lightweight laser that could easily be used to vaporize incoming projectiles. An active defense would be particularly useful for a mech due to its greater height as compared to other land vehicles- it could detect and counter threats much more quickly and effectivly from an anti-missile system mounted on the top of the mech.
|
|
Total Posts: 19 | Joined Sep. 2003 | Posted on: 8:53 pm on Mar. 19, 2004 | IP
|
|
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
|
|
There is work being done non-energy based actide defense systems that actually hit and destroy the missile (hard kill) and they don't involve phalanx style systems. SLID and AWISS are western systems being developed, while ARENA and DROZD ones already developed and I believe are currently being fielded by the Russians.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/missiles/slid/slid.htm
http://www.pml.tno.nl/en/pt/arena.html
In general, all the systems are little pods containing little canisters that are linked to some kind detection system and radar array. When an incomming round is detected, the canisters are launched at it and detonate, releasting whatever their contens are (most likely some kind of flechettes) to damage/destroy the projectile before it hits.
Compared to such an option, phalanx systems using smaller caliber weapons are for too ammunition intensive.
(Edited by Ajay at 9:20 am on Mar. 20, 2004)
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 10:16 am on Mar. 20, 2004 | IP
|
|
Caesar02
N00b Zerkleinerungsmaschine
|
|
|
You could use a Metal Storm style system to launch a couple dozen smaller fragmentary rounds in the path of an incoming projectile. Seems to me like that would be a nice compromise between a phalanx-style system and a single fragmentary round.
However, I still back the gasdynamic laser over any solid active defense. The laser has very high power levels, requires no electricity from the mech, can fire very rapidly, is small and lightweight, and could actually generate extra power for the mech while not in use. Plus, you never have to worry about running out of ammunition, unless you spend more that about 30 days on a mission.
-----
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
|
|
Total Posts: 1191 | Joined June 2002 | Posted on: 4:06 pm on Mar. 20, 2004 | IP
|
|
ChrisDickerson
Mecha Technician
|
|
|
The Metal Storm is an interesting weapon. Incredibly high rates of fire, approaching 1 million shots per minute are possible. The problem with this particular weapon is that it takes soo long to reload. One thing that seems to be missed on the whole rotary cannon debate is the fact that some of the cannons only fire about 650 rpm. This gives them the same ammo dependency that a single barreled chain gun might have, with longer service life due to the inherent design differences. Most of the time when I speak of rotary cannons, this is what I mean to say. I'm not normally talking about a 4,000-6,000rpm gun system. Toward that end, I am starting to really favor the General Dynamics XM-301, 20mm rotary cannon.
Caesar, I'm going to start researching more on the laser designs to check out your ideas. That last comment about being a possible secondary power source for the mech intrigues me. However, there will never be a fool proof replacement for good, old fashioned, stop-a-round-in-its-tracks, armor cover. Even when they do somehow come up with a shield system like on Star Trek, armor will still play a key role in vehicle defense.
-----
Chris Dickerson, Resource Requisitions, M.P.S. Team
No one has the time to do a job right the first time, but they always have time to do it again.
|
|
Total Posts: 1507 | Joined May 2003 | Posted on: 7:50 pm on Mar. 20, 2004 | IP
|
|
noahrei
Advanced Member
|
|
|
MAybe you could have some sort of sonic system to prematurely detonate incoming missiles. Just use a highly focused sound wave and fight off missiles with the bass in your mech (doubles equally well at winning out street custom competitions).
-----
In better times, justice had three flavors: Foil, Epee and Sabre.
Mad Rabbit Design
|
|
Total Posts: 500 | Joined Aug. 2002 | Posted on: 9:00 pm on Mar. 20, 2004 | IP
|
|
Caesar02
N00b Zerkleinerungsmaschine
|
|
|
<<MAybe you could have some sort of sonic system to prematurely detonate incoming missiles.>>
I imagine that this would require a massive power supply, since most high-end car sound systems require large supplies, and they arent even military grade. However, I do hope that the Mark One and subsequent mechs will be equipped with kick-ass stereos. Hell, I'll donate the system once the mech gets built, and thats a promise, Earle.
<<However, there will never be a fool proof replacement for good, old fashioned, stop-a-round-in-its-tracks, armor cover.>>
I agree completely. Even if you can stop incoming missiles and rockets with a laser, you can't stop machine gun fire. However, I do think that the amount of armor needed will be significantly reduced when an active missile system is implimented.
-----
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
|
|
Total Posts: 1191 | Joined June 2002 | Posted on: 10:12 pm on Mar. 20, 2004 | IP
|
|
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
|
|
Even if you can survive a missile hit (which few light systems are intended to do from the begining), surviving high velocity projectiles fired from autocannons and large bore guns (or whatever new systems are developed) would still suggest decent passive armor protection. The move to lighter armor has many motives behind it (mostly regarding deployability and terrain mobility). Although new active defenses will ease the move to lighter armor, they are not a driving force behind it.
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 11:31 pm on Mar. 20, 2004 | IP
|
|
noahrei
Advanced Member
|
|
|
I remember an article way back talking about how the army used a laser to shoot down and artillery shell in flight. Maybe some sort of adaption of this system could be used...if the Army is willing to share.
-----
In better times, justice had three flavors: Foil, Epee and Sabre.
Mad Rabbit Design
|
|
Total Posts: 500 | Joined Aug. 2002 | Posted on: 10:35 am on Mar. 22, 2004 | IP
|
|
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
|
|
I think that was the Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL). It was developed by both the US and Isareal to shoot down ballistic missiles and other projectiles.
They have made a much smaller laser system that can be mounted on a Hummer, running off of the engine (ZUES was it?). It can't destroy missiles and artillery shells in flight, as it lacks the tracking systems and power to effectively do so, but it is being used to detonate ordinance from a distance. They're working on upping the power of the laser too which may give it capabilities against light material targets like infantry and trucks.
The US military (and I'm sure many others) have intentions of equipping future ground vehicles with such laser defense systems.
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 4:52 pm on Mar. 22, 2004 | IP
|
|
| |
|
Reactive Armor
