  |
WarCat2020
Newbie
|
       |
My ideal tactical mix, as in smallest deployable battlefield unit, excepting covert missions and other single squad things, would go as such:
Infantry:
12 squads of standard soldiers, using landwarrior or better system, and outfitted with basic exoframes.
6 squads of PA's, each squad consisting of:
-One Heavy. High armor, lots of powerful weapons. The fire magnet and dispenser of vehicular demise.
-One Scout. Second most heavy PA. Fair stealth, high information gathering and communication jamming capabilities. Carries one heavy weapon, probably a .50cal OICW or 20mm autocannon. Carries two deployable aerial drones.
-One Sniper. Light PA with extreme stealth. Active stealth, IR Camouflage, Radar Absorptive materials, possible white noise generation. 20-30 mm sniping cannon, or possible 20mm three round burst electrothermal cannon (if they ever get this tech to work.)
-4 regulars. Medium weight PA's, carrying .50 Cal OICW's with 30mm HE round or Mini-Missile launchers.
Mechs:
3 squads of three mechs each.
Two squads of anthro-assault mechs with decent stealth and heavy weapons, and one squad of support mechs with heavy missiles, mortars, and other such indirect weaponry.
Standard Vehicles:
9 Strykers/Future IFV's. (standard armament mix. Missiles, cannons)
3 Light Railgun Strykers (Future IFV, eight wheeled.)
3 Mobile Support Bases (Large vehicle or vehicles with recharge capabilities and extra ammo, as well as wireless network routers)
3 Heavy tanks (For defending the mobile support bases.)
12 Hummer's equipped with weapons.
3 forward scouting vehicles equipped with small aerial drones.
The units would be split up as such... 4 squads of basic infantry, 2 squads of PA's, One squad of Mechs, 3 strykers, one mobile railgun, one forward scouting vehicle, 4 hummvees. Plus one set of mobile support base, and 1 tank, with infantry support.
This does not include air support. I'll leave that to the jet jockeys.
-----
On the battlefield, Beauty and Style take second place to Efficiency and Effectiveness. Style doesn't stop bullets.
|
|
Total Posts: 32 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:43 pm on Jan. 30, 2003 | IP
|
|
WarCat2020
Newbie
|
|
|
Oh, and two pieces of mobile artillery per mobile base.
-----
On the battlefield, Beauty and Style take second place to Efficiency and Effectiveness. Style doesn't stop bullets.
|
|
Total Posts: 32 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:49 pm on Jan. 30, 2003 | IP
|
|
Caesar02
N00b Zerkleinerungsmaschine
|
|
|
Ok, now if you take a step in this direction, you can begin your trip back to reality. Theyres so many things wrong with this, I dont even know where to start. So here goes nothing.
- The OICW system is a .22 cal rifle with a 20mm grenade launcher. It doesnt come in .50 cal.
- Radar-absorbing armor is more than a little unnecissary for infantry. Radar isn't really used to track people. It would be way too hard to do.
- 20-30mm autocannons would be more than a little hard to do, even for a soldier with a PA. Even if they can carry the gun, they'd have to carry all the ammo that it would eat up, and deal with the recoil.
- The mobile support base, while creative, would probably be nothing more than a slow-rolling target for enemy missiles. And trust me, they would ALL want to hit it.
- Several important niches were left unfilled; for instance, almost every weapon listed is a heavy weapon. There are precious few units with any real speed to work with. And these days, it's mobility that wins wars.
Now, you did get a few things right. For instance, I think the Strykers have potential. Maybe if you rework some of those gun sizes, the setup wouldn't be so bad.
-----
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
|
|
Total Posts: 1191 | Joined June 2002 | Posted on: 11:18 pm on Jan. 30, 2003 | IP
|
|
WarCat2020
Newbie
|
|
|
Ok, first off... Why would something that can flip over a volkswagen beetle one handed, and has endurance that lasts as long as it has power in it's fuel cells, carry anything smaller than .50 cal? The OICW I'm talking about would be called the OPACW, or Objective Powered Armor Combat Weapon. It would be larger and considerably heavier than a normal OICW, because a PA trooper would want the extra power for taking out light vehicles and other PA's.
-Secondly, while Radar Absorbing material might be a tad excessive, it is still a good thing for a sniper with a hard suit that would normally show up like a becon for anyone with ground mapping radar. Remember, this is assuming technology that could be present by 2020. The military already plans on having normal soldiers with active camouflage by 2025, so putting such on a PA in 2020 isn't a silly idea. As it is, a LADAR system hooked up to an image identifier could still penetrate his active camouflage.
-Thirdly... the 20-30mm autocannons were for the BIG suits. As in 9-10ft tall, with the ability to deadlift a volkswagen beetle and throw it at somebody.
-Fourthly, the mobile support bases would not be big slow targets. They would each be only as heavily armored as one of the light strike vehicles, and carry an ACTIVE missile defense system. And don't tell me that's silly, because the russians already have something that shoots down incoming missiles, and the American Military is hard at work on their own version.
-And fifthly, you assume that Troops with exoframes, NORMAL UNARMED HUMVEES, as well as PA's, would be slow and unmaneuverable. I specifically stated that I hadn't put in air support... such as transport choppers, Ospreys, and AV's. APC's would also be a good thing, and I would probably add a fair number of those to my list. Mechs have already been discussed as having anywhere from a good top speed to an incredible one. And the tanks, definitely something lighter than an M1A1, could pull a pretty impressive speed on their own.
-----
On the battlefield, Beauty and Style take second place to Efficiency and Effectiveness. Style doesn't stop bullets.
|
|
Total Posts: 32 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:01 am on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP
|
|
JB
Mecha_Pacifist
|
  |
One missile, with a military-grade EMP warhead.
-----
Warning: Prone to bouts of fanboydom and subsequent loss of relevance or coherence.
|
|
Total Posts: 1549 | Joined May 2001 | Posted on: 3:15 am on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP
|
|
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
|
|
A 20+mm autocannon produces at least a ton (literally) of recoil, and that's WITH recoil dampeners.
The 30mm gun on an apache is relatively weak for an autocannon, but it produces about a ton and a half worth of recoil. Your standard 25mm bushmaster produces about 3-4 tons of recoil.
For AFVs, recoil must equal about half of the AFV's total weight for it to be effectively mounted on the vehicle (I believe that's the ratio).
And that's with vehicles that have very good traction, low groudn clearance, and a heavy turret to carry the shock. If only air craft, humans, and mecha could be so lucky.
How about the M113 APC, with just some modifications to the armor, weapons,and certain systems? Even without state of the art technology, it holds the following advantages over the stryker.
1. It has treads as opposed to wheels. That gives it better terrain crossing ability, simplicity, and better survivability under fire than the Stryker (small arms can punch it's tires). It only sacrifices high speed in a straight direction on flat ground. The stryker can travel 60, while the M113 goes 40.
2. The Stryker in it's lightest form is barely air droppable from a C-130. The armored gun version and missile variants cannot be caried on a C-130. M113s can be carried by C-130 and higher, as well as Chinooks for air-mechanized operations (in many variations). It's the only vehicle we have other than a Hummer that can do so.
3. The M113 also carries more infatry dismounts than the Stryker.
4. Even it's armor offers better protection, especially after the Reactive armor tiles are added.
5. It's shape is little more than that of a box. That gives it many advantages regarding modular weapons systems.
All this from a vehicle that came intoi existence some 20+ years before the stryker. Imagine if it were beefed up with more modern systems......
(Edited by Ajay at 1:32 pm on April 7, 2003)
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 11:29 am on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP
|
|
WarCat2020
Newbie
|
|
|
Coolies on the M113. I was just citing what it looks like the military will be using by 2020... although they do appear to have something better than the Stryker in the works already.
As for the EMP missile... it's called shielded equipment. Or a missile defense system, like a 747 with a laser in the nose. Don't count on just one missile to do the job.
And as for the autocannons... it seems I must downgrade the weapons... Perhaps some kind of 20mm semi-auto rifle, with a 7.62mm underbarrel.
-----
On the battlefield, Beauty and Style take second place to Efficiency and Effectiveness. Style doesn't stop bullets.
|
|
Total Posts: 32 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:04 pm on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP
|
|
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
|
|
There is the 25mm OCSW (objective crew served weapon). It can fire bursting munitions and pierce light vehicle armor. It takes a crew of 2 to operate one, but a single infatryman with an exoskeleton could probably carry it like a larger7.62mm MG.
However, it can kill infatry in exoskeletons or powered armor just as easily, if not more so, than other AFVs.
(Edited by Ajay at 11:06 am on Jan. 31, 2003)
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 12:19 pm on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP
|
|
WarCat2020
Newbie
|
|
|
Excellent. Thanks.
-----
On the battlefield, Beauty and Style take second place to Efficiency and Effectiveness. Style doesn't stop bullets.
|
|
Total Posts: 32 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:44 pm on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP
|
|
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
|
|
I don't believe that the LAV-3 stryker and other future vehicles are going to be as heavily shielded against EMP blasts. the defense was originally concieved to protect vehicles fighting in a war where nuclear weapons are used (practically everything from the cold war era).
The requirements for the MAV require that it simply be able to restart all systems within 15 minutes of an EMP blast. I don't know if all the other vehicles are the same, but if this is any indication, than it's probably so.
It seems silly to me to make a ground based military force dependent upon information and communications equipment without effective EMP shielding, but I'm not the guy in charge.
Besides, an EMP based weapon wouldn't have to hit the target to be effective. Simply going close enough could also have an effect.
Is it possible that the mobile rail gun could also double as the heavy tank? Both would be providing direct fire support anyways.
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 4:53 pm on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP
|
|
JB
Mecha_Pacifist
|
|
|
Quote: from WarCat2020 on 11:04 am on Jan. 31, 2003
As for the EMP missile... it's called shielded equipment. Or a missile defense system, like a 747 with a laser in the nose. Don't count on just one missile to do the job.
A sufficient EMP would penetrate the shielding anyways, if I'm not mistaken.
And don't count on your anti-missile stuff to be 100% effective. The point was that your force is VERY reliant on advanced technology. You need some low-tech stuff.
-----
Warning: Prone to bouts of fanboydom and subsequent loss of relevance or coherence.
|
|
Total Posts: 1549 | Joined May 2001 | Posted on: 1:37 am on Feb. 1, 2003 | IP
|
|
WarCat2020
Newbie
|
|
|
Like what? Maybe some Migs? How about some horses? Maybe we could use carts instead of trucks...
-----
On the battlefield, Beauty and Style take second place to Efficiency and Effectiveness. Style doesn't stop bullets.
|
|
Total Posts: 32 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:45 am on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP
|
|
WarCat2020
Newbie
|
|
|
The point is... if my enemy can afford an EMP, he can afford a nuke. And if he can afford a nuke, he'll probably be using that, so my guys are screwed anyways, high tech or low tech. I'll go with high-tech, and take out the EMP and Nuke producing infrastructure before going in.
-----
On the battlefield, Beauty and Style take second place to Efficiency and Effectiveness. Style doesn't stop bullets.
|
|
Total Posts: 32 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:48 am on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP
|
|
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
|
|
They could be 3rd worlders that've gotten a hold of some other countrie's weapons and technology.
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 10:28 am on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP
|
|
Caesar02
N00b Zerkleinerungsmaschine
|
|
|
EMP warheads are NOT high technology. They are so simple that probably anyone posting here could build one. Even you, Warcat. Its basically just a wire coil with multiple explosive charges that explode in sequence from one side of the coil to the other. It causes a huge wave of electrons to shoot through the coil, and BAM, youve got EMP. Much less precise than a nuke, and in many ways, much more effective.
And about the OICW. You said that it would be .50 cal, and they don't come in .50 cal. Therefore, your weapon does not exist. The OCSW would be a much better weapon to use anyways. Even then, however, recoil could be an issue.
Please explain something to me: How is a 10 foot tall exoskeliton not a mech? Just curious.
And my point still stands that you listed almost entirely slow, heavy vehicles. Then only one the sounds fast is the forward scouting vehicle. Also, PAs arent really vehicles. They are armor. That is powered. Thats all.
-----
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
|
|
Total Posts: 1191 | Joined June 2002 | Posted on: 4:37 pm on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP
|
|
WarCat2020
Newbie
|
|
|
An exoskeleton... is not... 10 feet tall. An exoskeleton is however tall the trooper wearing it is, and last time I checked, most of our troopers were between 5 and 7 feet tall. The difference between a mech and a PA or Exoframe, is that a PA or Exoframe is built around a person, and a mech is pretty much it's own thing. If you are in a mech, and the arm gets shot off, the mech loses its arm, but you are fine. If you are in a PA or Exoframe, and THAT gets its arm shot off... you are missing YOUR arm.
Also... I'd put a PA suit that can run at 20 mph nonstop for 4 to 8 hours (And that's a conservative estimate for 2020 tech) in the vehicle category.
As for slow vehicles... at least according to the people who run this site... mechs are looking to be quite fast. So there are 9 fast vehicles right there. Then you have all the humvees, which can pull around 60 mph without too much stress, which is pretty fast on the battlefield. Really, anything that goes over 50mph is decently fast. Only air vehicles go really really fast, and if you mention motor bikes, I will hurt you. Motorcycles aren't used much for a reason... cause people get hurt ALOT on them. It takes lots of training to ride over rough terrain on a motorcycle at high speeds, and accidents still happen.
And as for the .50 Cal version of the OICW... it doesn't exist... yet.
-----
On the battlefield, Beauty and Style take second place to Efficiency and Effectiveness. Style doesn't stop bullets.
|
|
Total Posts: 32 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:58 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP
|
|
Caesar02
N00b Zerkleinerungsmaschine
|
|
|
Anything with "heavy weapons" attached to its name is either going to be slow or too massive. It be fast on the battlefield, but thats useless if it is too heavy to be transported to the battlefield. Almost everything listed on the first post has heavy weapons.
And another thing. You told us up at the top that your heavy PAs are 9-10 feet tall. Just now you said that they'd only be as tall as the person wearing it. Which is it?
-----
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
|
|
Total Posts: 1191 | Joined June 2002 | Posted on: 12:56 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP
|
|
JB
Mecha_Pacifist
|
|
|
Quote: from WarCat2020 on 10:58 am on Feb. 3, 2003
An exoskeleton... is not... 10 feet tall. An exoskeleton is however tall the trooper wearing it is, and last time I checked, most of our troopers were between 5 and 7 feet tall.
An exoskeleton is soldier height PLUS equipment.
10 feet is not an unreasonable estimate for a suit of powered armor.
-----
Warning: Prone to bouts of fanboydom and subsequent loss of relevance or coherence.
|
|
Total Posts: 1549 | Joined May 2001 | Posted on: 4:00 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP
|
|
Ajay
Highly Advanced Member
|
|
|
<<Please explain something to me: How is a 10 foot tall exoskeliton not a mech? Just curious.>>
I'm geussing it's all about control interfaces, allthough other than that, the differences are very minor.
Powered armors are worn more like suits of armor and emulate the pilot's movement. It can bascally do whatever the pilot can (while (s)he's fully strapped in). It'll provide you with much better armor and strength, but since it still must conform to basic human abilities and structure, it is somewhat more limited.
Like the landmates from Appleseed or the Dude in Unreal Torunament. Landmates look "mechaish" but they're basically still only able to do what their pilot can.
I do have some reservations as to how fast and maneuverable a soldier in powered armor will be.
Mecha (whiuch are vehicles) are big enough to have the pilot in a cockpit so that he will probably have additional displays and such. Also, since mecha don't have to confrom to the shape of the pilot in order to be operated, they can tale on a much wider variety of forms and extra abilities (extandable parts, extra limbs, and such).
Like Heavy Gear or Votoms.
Powered exoskletons are like a light frame that are strapped along the arms and legs with the poer source somewhere on the back. They don't add height to the soldier, they just make him stronger. Now he can carry heavier body armors, the Land Warrior system, as well as all his usual gear and some extra stuff without getting as tired. Alot of infatry equipment has to be a certain weight before it's acceptable.
The Landwarrior computer is about 20 pounds too heavy for an infatryman to carry. The OICW is too heavy as well. With a soldier equipped with a powered exoskleton, these problems aren't as severe. The Javelin and some larger machine guns are so large that you need 2 guys to carry the weapon, and the ammo (sometimes another for some of the other gear). With a dude with an exoskelton, he could probably carry around heavier weapons as easily as he would an M16 or even an M60.
However, since it's just a frame, and the pilot is not "inside" it, he's only protected by whatever body armor he has. you could probably mount some on the exoskelton itself as well. Ypou lose speed and maneuverability in that too.
Like the starship troopers (the movie or TV show), or in the movie A.I with the kid and the walking disability.
There can be exceptions to each though. Also, when I mean speed, I mean the ability to dash quickly. A tank can reach some 40+ miles per hour, but I don't think many people would consider it especially fast when compared to the kinds of movements infatrymen can make, especially in complex terrain (where most infatry combat takes place). There's also size.
Since a mecha will be about the size of other vehicles, it's generally stuck doing vehicle stuff (can't follow the infantry EVERYWHERE). An infantryman should be able to go more places than a mecha could. If powered armors are 10-12 feet tall (not much smaller than a theoretical military mecha) then they're basically just as limited in where they can operate. They can barely fit through doorways, into cramped spaces, hiding becomes more of a problem, etc.
7-8 feet, tops.
Either way, you'll probably still have alot of your dudes running around with no powered armor at all. I mean, who's gonna want to carry all thoise batteries or that fuel? There's also limits on operational time, mantainance and all that.
-----
"The world is more complicated than most of our theories make it out to be."
"A great many problems do not have accurate answers, but do have approximate answers, from which sensible decisions can be made."
|
|
Total Posts: 2508 | Joined Sep. 2001 | Posted on: 4:55 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP
|
|
tomexe
Hardcore
|
|
|
Well exoskeletons are Mecha. They are a mechanization. Exoskeletons are a subset of mecha. And the name should be self explanitory. It is a second skeleton you strap yourself to and it increases your ability to do work. But it doesn't have anything to enclose you for protection. And by nature it has a rather limited number of places to attach things to it. Since it has to be spindly enough not to restrict your movement or your ability to don and doff it.
A armor is something you "wear" and fully encloses you and traces your movements. However there is a wide spread here between those whos joints line up with yours, which are close to exoskeletions, and those that dont have joints that line up with yours, which start sliding toward being a full size mech. I would say though that anything small enough to enter buildings designed for normal humans and that is controled through body motion tracking still qualifies as a power armor.
A full mech is a piloted robot. It is driven like any other vheicle, not worn. The pilot is a commander/navigator that instructs his vheicle when and where to move and what tasks to perform-but the vheicles computer largely does the "how" by itself according to its programming.
|
|
Total Posts: 1212 | Joined May 2001 | Posted on: 2:55 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
|
|
| |
|
The Perfect Tactical Mix
